The World O' Crap Archive

Welcome to the Collected World O' Crap, a comprehensive library of posts from the original Salon Blog, and our successor site, world-o-crap.com (2006 to 2010).

Current posts can be found here.

Friday, May 20, 2011

A New War on Christmas Holiday Classic

I have something to confess:  Lately, I just don’t feel like I’ve been doing my part in the War on Christmas.  Oh sure, I’ve served as an air raid warden, and I’ve bought war bonds and saved bacon drippings, and I take part in all the paper drives, scrap metal drives, and rubber-meets-the-bat drives.  And sure, I stopped Mr. Potter from taking over the town, but even though my sore ear keeps me out of combat, I can’t help feeling that I should be doing more.

But then, couldn’t we all be doing more?  Hey, I know!  Let’s all work together, and I bet we can make this the best War on Christmas ever!  Just list your nominees for the worst Christmas movie ever made.  Candidates need not be limited to films that are badly made or poorly acted, but may also include films that reek of cynicism or ennui, in that perfunctory, Hallmark Hall of Fame sort of way.  And the movie need not focus on Christmas, so long as it’s bad enough and there’s a defensible connection to the holiday.

Post your nominations in the comments.  We’ll select one to receive the Better Living Through Bad Movies treatment, and we’ll post the winner…loser…whatever…on Christmas Eve.  And you can keep the Sneaker Phone as our free gift to you.

(The two MST3K holiday episodes, the Mexican Santa Claus and Santa Claus Conquers the Martians are ineligible for this contest.  Odds of winning are based on number of entries.  Void in Utah.)


82 Responses to “A New War on Christmas Holiday Classic”


Hmm… Dr. Seuss’ “The Grinch” (or whatever they called that live-action movie with Jim Carrey) made me die a little inside.
I’d say that an easier contest would be to list the least-offensive Christmas-themed movie. Christmas movies, by their very nature, are simplistic, pandering affairs. They have to appeal to children as well as adults, and there’s really only one way for any of them to end. Meanwhile, the dialogue is stilted, the acting almost entirely one-note, and the plot on auto-pilot.
I would have to nominate any Christmas film involving Tim Allen or any holiday film ever shown on Lifetime. Then, of course, there’s “Jingle All The Way.” Schwarzenegger AND Sinbad? (shudder) Or what about “Ernest Saves Christmas”? Nothing says “Happy Birthday, Jesus” like redneck toilet humor.
I thought, this is a cinch: a movie with a murdering Santa Claus is sure-fire arsefodder. Then I remembered there are a LOT of those. Kind of scary–in fact, quite a bit more frightening than any of the individual entrees.
I am ashamed to admit that I have forgotten which one ends with that WTF? moment involving a flying van. So I’m gonna go with the one in my DVD collection:
“Silent Night, Deadly Night.”
Nothing in this psychological-trauma festival–especially the scene with Grampa–must ever, under any circumstances, be viewed by anyone under the age of, say, thirty.
For them, there’s always “Surviving Christmas.”
*There’s even a couple of episodes of “Futurama” featuring a killer ROBOT Santa–and in the future, Christmas is officially called “X-mas,” so I guess we dirty liberal pagans win the war! Huzzah!
Happy Holidays!
I can’t stand “A Christmas Story” w/ that vampire chasin’ guy and the kid w/ the glasses.
I was going to suggest “Christmas with the Kranks,” but it’s a toss-up as to whether it or Ron Howard’s “Dr. Seuss’s How the Grinch Stole Christmas” is more excruciating (“Grinch” made a fortune, which makes it even more hateable)
“The Christmas Shoes.” (Made for TV two or three years ago.)God help me, I wish I had those two hours back!!! Like drowning in high-fructose corn syrup!
Dear Academy,
Please consider Jack Frost, the movie where Michael Keaton dies, and then comes back as a snowman in order to traumatize his son further. Thumpety-thump-thump indeed!
“Santa With Muscles”
Stars Hulk Hogan.
Nuff said.
Dammit–in my haste, I forgot to blather on and on about how the release of “Silent But Deadly Night” (sic) stirred up a nationwide campaign to have it banned/boycotted; naturally the resulting publicity made it astonishingly profitable, subjecting us to FOUR brainsmashingly awful sequels and teaching us a valuable lesson about the true meaning of Ecksmuss: ka-ching!
Lumps of coal for everyone!
Nothing tops “Santa’s Slay”. Because Goldberg trumps Hogan as an actor…
http://spoonyexperiment.com/rants/SantasSlay/
I hate Christmas Movies.
I assume all TV made for movies are off limits. Otherwise it’s going to be a feeding frenzy over which boilerplate is the worst: cranky old farts who:
A)lives in a mansion and spent his life in the pursuit of wealth
B)lives in the suburbs and doesn’t go out since son disappeared
C) lives on the top of a mountain in Tennessee morosely talking to their hound dog
learn the true meaning of Christmas after an A)angel B)nun C) process server
played by
A) Dolly Parton B) Whoopi Goldberg C)Alec Baldwin
reunites (or unites) them with A) their son B) daughter C) cherubic hermaphroditic orphan
played by
A) Travis Tritt B)Brittany Spears C) Ted Nugent. You can even mix and match.
Okay, my vote is for the Family Man which I detest. I mean Cage gets Tia Leone, is still a gazillionaire and all that crap about life in New Jersey ( from whence I hail) is only a nightmare. I mean it is as if Mr. Potter gets Mary. Shit, for Christmas he and Leone probably foreclose on a soup kitchen the next day. God, that movie sucks.
How bad wasSanta Claus – The Movie? I didn’t want to inflict the pain of Dudley Moore as an elf, but maybe someone around here has masochistic tendencies.
I second the live-action version of “How the Grinch Stole Christmas”. My then 3 year-old nephew hated it.
And “Scrooged!”, the ’80′s update of “A Christmas Carol” with Bill Murray as a yuppie Scrooge, Alfre Woodward as the Cratchett stand-in, and Bobcat Goldthwait. (Redeemed slightly, IMO, by the really nice Al Green/Annie Lennox duet of “Put A Little Love In Your Heart”.)
Oh, gods, I’d forgotten completely about “A Smoky Mountain Christmas”, starring Dolly Parton and her wig collection. Jaded country singer goes back to Appalachia to encounter adorable orphans, rugged macho mountain men, and a wicked witch (no really) played by Anita Morris. My mother has to watch it every single year.
And if you want killer Santas, I would check out the Invader Zim episode “The Most Horrible Xmas Ever”…
SNOWMAN: But Santa lives on.
CHILD: In the hearts and minds of us all?
SNOWMAN: No! In the far reaches of space! That’s why we live in this protective dome! (ALARM BELLS RING) Raise the shields, children!!!
Apologies to tomg, but made-for-TV Christmas movies are the apogee of holiday horror (or TV horror, period, except possibly for Sci-Fi Channel originals like “Mansquito”). Just as some radio stations switch to 24/7 Christmas carols each December, so do Lifetime and WE with heartwarming dramas.
Why, just last night ABC Family aired a worthy contender with Jenny McCarthy as Santa (George Wendt)’s daughter, although Kelsey Grammer’s turn as Santa’s son probably tops that. And Bill Murray’s “Scrooged” has nothing on “A Christmas Carol” remakes such as Vanessa Williams in VH1′s “A Diva’s Christmas Carol” (the Ghost of Christmas Future is a “Behind the Music” episode) or Susan Lucci as “Ebbie.”
Forced to pick just one, however, I’d go with Marlo Thomas’s “It Happened One Christmas” — a sex-swapped remake of “It’s a Wonderful Life” with suicidal Mary Bailey (Thomas) saved by guardian angel Clara (Cloris Leachman), while husband George (Wayne Rogers) hangs around in the background and Orson Welles plays mean old Mr. Potter.
Eric G – that is why I thought made-for-TV Christmas movies, all of them bad, were discounted. Trying to distinguish one level of idiocy from another is simply too much. It requires a refinement of sensibility that no human really has. I think Hume talks about it in his essay On Taste, although not specifically referring to Christmas made for TV movies, TV not being around in the 1740s. So far,four made-for TV contenders contenders with which I am familiar,have been noted: Ebbie, A Diva’s Christmas, It Happened One Christmas, and A Smoky Mountain Christmas. But distinguishing amongst them? It’s like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and then being sidetracked into wondering whether they are doing the macarena or the hokey pokey.
Still, I guess we have to admit made for TV movies, and therefore I wish to withdraw my vote from The Family Man which is merely morally stupid to consider my other choices.
Wasn’t there a TV movie about 10 years ago where Angela Lansbury played Mrs. Claus? No, it wasn’t a murder mystery.
I remember a few years back I called into the local radio station when they were discussing favourite Christmas movies. So I wanted to talk about “A Junkie’s Christmas.” Written by William S Burroughs and directed by Francis Ford Coppola. The host of the show was quite open to me describing the movie but he did seem a little shocked that such a thing actually existed. If you ever find it, be sure to show it for your visiting religious family over the holiday. That should be enough to get them to shut up about Jesus for at least an hour.
Second Kevin, there acn’t be a worse movie than one based on a song that goes, “Hurry, sir, there’s not much time, I want her to be beautiful if momma meets Jesus tonight.” Plus Rob Lowe is in The Christmas Shoes, nuff said.
Ohhhh, “Christmas Shoes” the first time I ever heard of that song, Patton Oswalt was doing a bit on it at Largo(I think). Fuckin’ killed with that bit, and I kept thinking “No way there is a song like that”, but then I heard it. My ears still bleed a bit when I think about it.
My nominees are:
One Magic Christmas: The MOST depressing Christmas movie EVER, with Harry Dean Stanton as a creepy, pedophliliac-seeming angel, and Santa God. Or something like that. All I know is that when people die, they don’t go to heaven, they go work in Santa God’s sweatshop–er workshop. Or something like that.
Once Upon A Christmas (or it’s sequel, Twice Upon A Christmas) with Kathy Ireland as Santa’s daughter, who brings the Christmas spirit and an annoying squeaky voice to the lives of a grinchy family.
I second “Jingle All the Way”. I sat all the way through this one once, I don’t remember why, since I’ve never liked Christmas movies, but I did. It’s got Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sinbad, and an incredibly materialistic Christmas message of buying forgiveness and love with toys. Just thinking about it makes me want to go out and burn a Christmas tree.
Can I nominate the Very Special Christmas Episode that every freakin’ TV show feels obliged to have every year?
OMG, MaryC–One Magic Christmas! I was trying to remember the name of that horrible movie. The woman’s husband is killed in a bank robbery, the thief steals her car–with her two kids in the back seat. Thief crashes car into river and kids are swept away…and the fricking angel rags on her for “not having the Christmas spirit” or some shit because she doesn’t believe in Santa Claus? It’s truly “throw stuff at the screen” bad.
If I recall correctly, the husband doesn’t actually “come back to life” at the end. So you know, her husband is dead, but woman learns to be grateful for…I don’t know. It made no sense to me–but I didn’t drink back then.
I nominate The Polar Express… because Christmas movies have been mawkish, they have been wrong-headed, but never before had they been populated by CREEPY, SOULLESS DOLL-PEOPLE.
Void in Utah.
Oh, darn. I was gonna nominate “Teh Mitt Of Teh Latter Day Saints™: Teh Mitt Romney Story.” Now I’ll have to think of something else.
Hey! Why hasn’t Sci-Fi done “A Very Mansquito Christmas” yet? It’d be a shoo-in to become an annual holiday classic!
Christmas movies have been mawkish, they have been wrong-headed, but never before had they been populated by CREEPY, SOULLESS DOLL-PEOPLE.
I take it you’ve never seen Andy Williams.
OK, OK. For real this time. My nomination was on last night, and I didn’t even catch it. Of course, not seeing something hasn’t ever kept a wingnut critic silent, so what the hey! It’s a remake, would you believe it, of a 1974 Rankin-Bass animated TV special, “The Year Without a Santa Claus.” Now, the plot of the ’74 version, ‘cos it appears that they… um… changed things a wee bit in last night’s version, but more on that in a minute!
Anyway, as I was saying, in the ’74 one, Santa decides to take the year off, possibly because he feels that people are ungrateful wretches (memory doesn’t serve). Since this was ’74, and environmentalism was all the rage, Santa becomes entangled with Mother Nature and her two sons: Heat Miser and Cold Miser. The boys are warring with each other, and MN wants Santa to help find a way to restore the peace (yes, Vietnam references, too!). You can figure the rest out yourself. Along the way, we’re treated to two rather catchy songs, “Mr. Heat Miser,” and “Mr. Cold Miser,” which are actually pretty much the same song with slightly different lyrics.
OK, yesterday’s version is a live-action movie. I’d be really darned surprised if there were any Iraq references in it. Or Green ones. And, wotta cast! Harvey Fierstein plays Heat Miser, who, along with his bro, Cold Miser, is evidently a pro wrestler (!!!) in the remake. I have no idea if they’re supposed to be the Nature-themed demi-gods of the old, animated special. I mean, sure, Carol Kane is there as Mother Nature, but who knows? She could just as easily be a “wacky” lady wrestler just as easily as anything. The songs? Again, unknown. I actually could picture that cast singing, so I won’t even bet.
If anyone out there has seen the 2006 version of “The Year Without a Santa Claus,” fill us in! I’m dying to hear!
Possibly just me, but “It’s a Wonderful Life” has always rather struck me as proof that Jesus’ bedroom is decorated with paintings of huge-eyed kittens in baskets and Precious Moments figurines. Short of that, my vote goes to the Jim Carrey grinch thing, for the reason Charlotte cites.
Worst christmas movie? “Home Alone”.
Best christmas movie? “The Sure Thing”.
what about Billy Bob in “Bad Santa”, talk about creepy.
Babes in Toyland
I second the nomination of “A Christmas Story.” I’ve never seen it, but that kid with the glasses creeps me out, and it just looks like a contender. I think the nomination of “Bad Santa” is a good one also, and what about the one with that Home Improvement guy, Tim Something-or-other. Mind you, I never saw any of these, but they get my vote, anyway. I like “Scrooged” though!
Best Christmas movie? Die Hard. Has to be. It has snow, and family values, and lovers reunited, and a smiling man with a beard and lots of toys, and happy policemen, and a big fir tree and a happy song at the end!
(In the UK, “The Great Escape” used to be a regular BBC fixture on the afternoon of Christmas Day. Name me another family Christmas film special in which almost the entire cast gets machinegunned by the SS at the end.)
Don’t forget that 1964 classic, “Santa Claus Conquers the Martians?”
Okay, you made me do this. Witness the suck that is The Star Wars Holiday Special. It’s like the neutron bomb of bad holiday shows. Of course it can’t win the contest, because as the folks from SCTV said about Laverne & Shirley, some shows defy parody.
Ah…”The Star Wars Holiday Special.” I think Carrie Fisher is probably grateful that she was way too high during the filming to remember any of it.
For more years than I can remember “It’s a Wonderful Life” has made me want to stick red hot needles into my eyes.
How do I detest it? Let me count the ways… no, that’s not how the poem goes…
ANYHOO, that’s my number one holiday movie hate. The remake of the Grinch with Jim Carrey (or for that matter, anything AT ALL with Jim Carrey) comes in second.
The Santa Clause 2 and/or 3. I didn’t mind the first one, but it really wasn’t worthy of a sequel. And now, a third one? Why? Just… why?
Shame on those who nominate the best Christmas movie of all time Bad Santa! Also I like A Christmas Story, if only for the lines “My father worked in profanity the way other artists might work in oils or clay. It was his true medium, a master. ”
I did watch about 5 minutes of the live action “Year without a Santa Claus.” In the animated version, the Misers minions are miniature versions of themselves. In this one, they were scantily clad babes.
To Grandmother’s House We Go, starring the Olsen twins.
You’re left rooting for a big bad wolf to show up…
I just don’t think it’s OK for you folks to make fun of Christmas, that day when we commemorate the birth of Santa Claus.
that day when we commemorate the birth of Santa Claus.
That would be the Rankin-Bass creepfest, Santa Claus is Comin’ to Town, depicting Santa’s early years from foundling to robust redhead with a yen for the local schoolmarm. Narrated by a bendy toy Fred Astaire with a head shaped like a Contact cold capsule.
I would like to nominate the Wicker Man ( original version) as the best sort-of Christmas movie ( in a pagan, human sacrifice, solstice sun worshipping, fertility sort of way). I’m still thinking of the worst Christmas movie ever.
I still haven’t forgiven the co-worker who told me, “No, Matt, you’ll love ‘The Elf’. It’s really sweet and funny.”
No, it was dull and mawkish, and there should be a law passed that requires Will Ferrell to get daily ass beatings if he wants to remain a “movie star”. It might’ve made a cute half-hour show, but goddamn, that was a long hour-and-a-half that I could’ve been, I dunno, washing a tractor or something.
Oh, how could I forgot the monstronsity that is “Grandma Got Run Over by A Reindeer“?
Yeah, that amusing-the-first-time, maybe-the-second-time-if-you’re-drunk, song got made into the one of the most awful cartoons I’ve ever seen. It’s not just the piss-poor animation, the stereotyped characters (the sexy blonde is a money-grubbing schemer? who saw that coming?), the ridiculous plot (let’s wait around a year for no reason!)–it’s the total idiocy of the whole thing (“reindeer nip”? Santa Claus gets put on trial for “the disappearance of Grandma”? WTF?).
It combines the worst parts of brainless children’s shows, stupid marketing tie-ins, and sappy holiday glurge into 51 truly awful minutes of TV torture.
D. Sidhe said: Possibly just me, but “It’s a Wonderful Life” has always rather struck me as proof that Jesus’ bedroom is decorated with paintings of huge-eyed kittens in baskets and Precious Moments figurines.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! God, I loathe that movie, and I’m so happy I’m not the only one who does — especially as D. Sidhe’s comments are always great. It goes right along with other things our parents liked that I’ve never been able to understand, like baggy suits and the Dead End Kids.
But now I have to hang my head in shame because I like “Scrooged”. Well, I do!
From the Great White North:
The Silent Partner
“The Canadian “sleeper” The Silent Partner stars Elliot Gould as a teller who gets wind of master criminal Christopher Plummer’s scheme to rob his bank. Don’t let the comic-strip style poster art of Silent Partner, depicting a gun-wielding Santa Claus, fool you; this one gets extremely brutal and bloody at times. Also . . . a very young and hairy John Candy.”
And
Black Christmas
“Though John Carpenter’s Halloween (1978) is generally credited with popularizing the main motifs of the contemporary slasher film genre, many genre aficionados will contend that Black Christmas invented many of them four years earlier. For example, the film features shots from the perspective of the killer, replete with muffled breathing noises. Also, it is a slasher film centered around a holiday, much in the manner Halloween was.”
‘Cause nothing says Christmas like psycho bank robbers and freshly dead sorority girls.
Mont D. Law
I too vote for Jingle All the Way and/or Jack Frost.
Speaking of elves, how about a Little People contest? Under the Rainbow takes suck into a new dimension.
I’d rather watch every bad Christmas movie ever made than read the load of polysyllabic bullshit on this site. It’s a wonderful world were a bunch of unweaned, privlidged, self-absorbed, intellectual wanna-bees can get together and share their Jack Handy deep thoughts about a popular culture they despise. Fuck you and your post-modern drivel. By the way, Merry Christmas
Ooooh, a real, live Christmas troll! And wishing us greetings in the true spirit of the Season! Isn’t that sweet.
Well, BeginningToWonder, trolls have to celebrate too…
But back to the movies at hand. So far I count three, count them, three different nominations for “It’s a Wonderful Life.”
And heartfelt nominations they were, too. You could feel the pain and loathing dripping out of the… sorry… getting carried away here.
I’m just dropping by to let you know that if DSidhe, Tehanu and I all agree on this we should get triple points for sweetly agreeing. Or something. But if “It’s a Wonderful Life” doesn’t win we’ll, we’ll, well, we’ll think of something awful to do…
“White Christmas” with Bing Crosby ins’t the worst but it needs to be mentioned. WTF was that? I started to watch it and soon grew ill an dhad to turn it off during a song on the train. ew ew ew ew ew.
But worst ever, The live “Grinch.” The original didn’t need to be remade and then to remake it badly earns it a special place in film hell.
Oh and a special tip of the barf-bag to the music video with David Bowie and Bing Crosby singing some Christmas song together.
And to make the trolls happy: best Christmas Movie/TV show: “A Charlie Brown Christmas.” Cute but not sickly so, great music that appeals across age groups, a nice story and it mentions the religious aspect without sounding like a Hallmark card.
“Jack Frost”. Not the Michael Keaton gagfest, the Rankin-Bass special involving a murderous Cossack and his windup-robot army, fainting maidens and valiant blond knights in golden armor, and a groundhog. Blecherous!
“…and Santa Claus Conquers the Martians are ineligible for this contest.”
BASTARDS!!
(sniff)
“I’d rather watch every bad Christmas movie ever made than read the load of polysyllabic bullshit on this site. It’s a wonderful world were a bunch of unweaned, privlidged, self-absorbed, intellectual wanna-bees can get together and share their Jack Handy deep thoughts about a popular culture they despise. Fuck you and your post-modern drivel. By the way, Merry Christmas”
Left by Roger Gavin on December 13th, 2006

Which is ironic given that you had to want to come here and actually read things in order to whine about them…IOW you’re a fucktard.
I vote for Silent Night, Deadly Night if no one has already mentioned it.
Cheers!
Hey, Sean, you couldn’t define irony let alone give me an example of it. And ironic sounds a lot like another word that describes a cretin misfit like yourself: moronic. Get a life you fucktard.
You know, I have to step up to defend A Christmas Story. My parents were from that era, and I haven’t seen a better parody of suburban American life, ever. It could be a generational thing. (Besides, it has Electric Sex in it! How do you beat that?)
I would like to nominate the Wicker Man ( original version) as the best sort-of Christmas movie ( in a pagan, human sacrifice, solstice sun worshipping, fertility sort of way). I’m still thinking of the worst Christmas movie ever.
Tomg, I don’t know if Wicker Man counts: it’s a Lughnasad/Lamas movie (August 1), not Christmas/Yule/Solstice. Celts did the cross-quarter days more than the equinoxes and solstices.
It is a kickin’ movie, though.
I must really vote for It’s a Wonderful Life. Mawkish, horribly sentimental, and as manipulative as a smothering Mom, it’s the diseased root from which all rotten Christmas movies have sprouted. People had better sense when it was originally released – it was not a success and was laughed at for years. Blame the ’70s for its comeback and installation as a “great” film.
The Angela Landsberry xmas movie you’re thinking of is Mrs. Santa Claus. I whole heartedly agree with whoever put up Grandma Got Ran Over by a Reigndeer: horrid writing and animation as well as nearly ruining a song I rather liked at one time.
As for Santa’s Slay, any movie that kills annouying, holier-than-thou types who bitch about “happy holidays” gets at least one cool point from me.
But if “It’s a Wonderful Life” doesn’t win we’ll, we’ll, well, we’ll think of something awful to do…
We’ll perform, Live From The Comments, The Star Wars Christmas Special (Dibs on that Ewok thing!). That’ll teach y’all.
And no, no, Sean’s right. Irony is going out of your way to do something–twice–that you declare you would rather watch every bad Christmas movie ever made than do. Unless, of course, you’ve actually already *watched* them all and are just bored now. In which case, welcome, we’re sort of masochistic like that about bad movies too. Do you have the book yet?
(Um, do you think Jesus minds you using traditional good wishes involving His birthday as a translation for “Fuck you”? It doesn’t seem in keeping with the spirit, really.)
Dear Gav-Gav: you come here to insult us, and check back to gauge the responses; you might as well wear a huge flashing neon sign on your head that reads, \”I have no life.\” Trust me, you only succeed in amusing us.
Dave Larsen over at Dayton Daily News has a \”worst\” list up, and it looks…familiar. (He also nicks Adam Sandler\’s \”Eight Crazy Nights,\” which had burned itself out of my memory. Now I taste blood and ozone. Thanks a lot, Dave.)
Happy Holidays!
http://www.daytondailynews.com/l/content/oh/story/
living/holiday/2006/12/05/ddn120606lifebadholidaytv.html
Hi Dorothy,
Thanks for the info. I knew it was summer, but didn’t know about Celts and quarter-cross days ( or what a quarter-cross day is). Still, since there are no Saturnalia movies ( which in its earliest form involved killing of the king substitute and according to legend went on until 303 CE when a Christian soldier in Durostorum was chosen mock king, refused to participate, so they celebrated in a truly traditional manner and killed him.),I though I’d nominate Wicker Man in the true spirit of the season. Sort of like one of those Christmas in July movies. It is a kickin movie
Okay, I’m seeing a trend here, and I’m feeling strong and hopeful. DSidhe, Tehanu and I have been joined by mndean. The groundswell for “It’s a Wonderful Life” is growing, and we’re turning into an avalanche. To mix my metaphors. (During the holiday season mixed metaphors are almost as tasty as mixed drinks and mixed nuts. And God knows the holiday parties are full of mixed nuts…) Remember, I’m keeping an eye on this contest. Also bear in mind what DSidhe said our revenge would be. After that the only recourse would be to scoop out your eyeballs with spoons. (Thanks to one of the guys at “Sadly, No” for that delicious image.)
No disrespect to the Sadly, No! boys, but I’ve tended to question the value of spoons in an eyeball-scooping-out situation. Some in-the-trenches research among my fellow migraineurs leads me to conclude that it’s strictly a melon baller scenario. Myself, I have a professional melon baller that is easily the most high-end implement in my kitchen, and yes that includes the zester, and since I don’t ball melons, professionally or otherwise, it’s likely to be the only chance I get to use the thing.
What were we talking about again?
Why, I believe, DS, we were discussing the most effective way to gouge out one’s eyeballs. Someone’s been reading too much Cormack McCarthy (I’d say too much Sadly, No – but that’s impossible).
*Sigh* We’ve already been through this. Roger Gavin, look at the date on your previous entry. now, tell me, is it Christmas yet? No? Then STFU, please. Thanx! Oh, and Happy Holidaze, dude!
I’d rather watch every bad Christmas movie ever made than read the load of polysyllabic bullshit on this site.
…says Roger Gavin the Christmas Troll, who merrily uses his tribe’s traditional greeting of holiday joy as an epithet to abuse the hated polysyllabic liberals.
Hey, Sean, you couldn’t define irony let alone give me an example of it. And ironic sounds a lot like another word that describes a cretin misfit like yourself: moronic.
Well, “irony” and “ironic” are big, polysyllabic words, so it makes sense that you would not understand them. I’ll try to explain using monosyllabic (I mean, small) words.
Irony is when the true intended meaning is other than the obvious conventional meaning. (Damnit, too many syllables. Well, try to keep up anyway…)
For example: For most people, the expression (oops, I mean, phrase) “Merry Christmas” means to wish someone a happy holiday, specifically a happy Christmas with good will to all and decorating and family and giving gifts and doing things for the kids and eating pie.
For Christians, it’s about these things and it’s also about Jesus for reasons that make no sense if you understand (I mean, “get”) anything about the historical origins (I mean, “where it came from”) of the holiday.
The rest of us just stick to the goodwill, etc., and pie, and this seems to bother some people.
“Merry Christmas” is a nice thing to say, if one looks only at the literal meaning and its obviously friendly (I mean “nice”) intent.
Your use of it, on the other hand, is as an epithet (I mean, “insult”): your real meaning is made clear in the previous sentence.
You do not intend to wish us a happy and joyous celebration (I mean, “happy times”) with our families; rather, you are using it as a substitute for “fuck you” which is the opposite intention (I mean, “it’s, like, so NOT…”) of the phrase’s normal meaning.
This is irony. Congratulations on your successful use of a concept you do not understand. I hope this helps you. I really tried not to use too many big words like “polysyllabic.”
Good luck with the anti-polysyllabic thing. Most folks require a higher than 3rd grade education, but if you can do ok without it, more power to you.
And Happy Holidays to everyone.
and since I don’t ball melons, professionally or otherwise,
Here’s a tip. Using a paring knife, peel away the hard outer shell in a circle around the hole; this leaves a soft and wet tunnel of fleshy material that yeilds to pressure and avoids the dreaded “skin scrape” that can come with leaving the hard shell intact. Some use a serrated knife to make the hole, as this leaves little ribbed ridges on the inner surface.
What? Why is everyone looking at me like that?
Oh, and for gouging eyes, doesn’t anyone just use their thumbs anymore? I guess I’m a traditionalist.
I’ll have to go with “It’s A Wonderful Life” as well. What happened was the copyright for the movie was allowed to expire for a few years so anyone could air it as often as they wanted, edited in any fashion, even in a colorized version! But even if it hadn’t been over exposed, it was just a whiny-assed movie!
And runner-up status goes to “Ebbie” with Susan Lucci playing Elizabeth “Ebbie” Scrooge.
RobW:
I have a feeling Roger Gavin thinks “Rain on your wedding day” truly is ironic.
While falling out of copyright made IAWL a widely available (and cheap to buy) movie, that was much later, in the 80′s, long after it was enshrined as a “classic”. Blame film revivals and institutions such as the UCLA film school for this ludicrous and deplorable situation. Oh, and all those stoned ’70′s kids watching and weeping who were far more gushingly sentimental than their parents. Pot isn’t always wonderful, it produces altered states such as thinking (if you can call it that) IAWL is good.
Oh, as for Roger – ignore him, he’s a bomb thrower (a term I use for particularly loud, obnoxious trolls).
I want to nominate Chuck Jones’s “The Grinch Who Stole Christmas.” A bigger load of unbelievable, derivative crap I have never seen. That green clod would never be able to pass himself off as Santa, not even to that little brat, Cindy-Lou Who. And the Whos of Whoville would NEVER respond to the tragic loss of their presents with such joy and happiness. Ridiculous. And what’s up that little dog, anyway? “Do monsters even keep pets, or do they eat them?” I ask you. And that anemic mutt could never plausibly haul that huge sleigh. I mean, please!
Oh, wait, I forgot, ‘The Grinch’ was actually really good. Never mind. I withdraw the nomination.
Oh, and I’d love to void in Utah, but I couldn’t hold it in long enough to make the trip.
ALL RIGHT!!! The groundswell grows… DSidhe, Tehanu, mndean and I have been joined by Colleen. YES!!! I scent victory on the wind… it smells like napalm in the morning… no, wait, that’s the wrong movie…
Howsomever, I’m seeing a trend, a growing demand, an imperative. Do remember what we’ll do (thanks, DSidhe) if we lose.
Oh, by the way DSidhe, when using a spoon on eyeballs I’ve always used one of those grapefruit spoons, the ones with the pointed, serrated ends.
The Star Wars Holiday Special was a Thanksgiving show not Christmas.
I’ve got to go with Polar Express if not for the creepy soul-less doll people than for the Leni Riefenstahl directed north pole scenes.
I can’t believe that no one mentioned “Christmas Vacation”for worst X-mas flick evah. Every year my relatives have to play that horrid thing when I visit. The suckage from that is surely a WMD.
The best ever Christmas movie is the Alastair Sim version of a Christmas Carol, “Scrooge”. Every time I watch it I want to go out and grab these hateful rich bastards who call themselves Christians, strap them in a chair, tape their eyelids open, and force them to watch it 100 times. It’s also beautifully acted and very funny. It’s best in black and white, of course. My son and I actually have it memorized in parts.
“Besides, it’s not my business.”
“Isn’t it, sir?”
Kirby: My partner played the drunken doctor character in an indie version of “A Junkie’s Christmas”, with a local lawyer playing the Junkie and narrating from Burroughs throughout. I absolutely love it, but I don’t think it’s ever going to see the light of day. The curse of the indie flick… We’ve seen a screening of the ocmpleted version, but don’t have a copy ourselves.
mndean, you sound like you know what you are talking about. I love this stuff, how can I contact you?
Moi, know what I’m talking about? I watch a lot of films (hardly any current Hollywood fare – I like old movies), but my opinion shouldn’t be taken as any more valid than anyone else’s here. As for the history of IAWL, I’ve read about its lack of success originally, and I’m old enough to remember its revival (the UCLA bit I’d read also, though) . Since we weren’t required to consider only badly made films (IAWL is certainly not badly made – it’s well done, which makes it all the clearer how manipulative and sodden it is. After the war, Capra didn’t go nuts exactly, but he turned into a moviemaker only Louis Mayer could love), I picked the movie that is the model of the “Christmas movie”, with plot elements and situations that recur incessantly in more recent films. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me would know a predecessor that’s even worse, but it’s a forgotten film now. A Christmas Carol is the other big holiday touchstone, but there have been pretty good films based on it. So anyway, I may be right or I may be full of it, and I’m sure some comment readers here think the latter :) I’ll try to leave a link, but I have no idea if it’ll work, but you can try my name at pacbell dot net.
Well, the voting seems to have tapered off, leaving IAWL as the winner, based on the heartfelt responses, if not the unrelenting insistence on it by some people in the comments section. So, in the decision process please do consider whether you want DSidhe and the rest of us to regale you with the Star Wars Holiday Special. (Have you SEEN that site? Creepy…)
Hey, Sean, you couldn’t define irony let alone give me an example of it. And ironic sounds a lot like another word that describes a cretin misfit like yourself: moronic. Get a life you fucktard.
Left by Roger Gavin on December 13th, 2006

Poor Roger, can’t even get his own insults…he has to reclycle mine.
Try looking up irony in the dictionary…unless you burned yours already.
Happy Holidaze!
I nominate “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” (2002), a made-for-TV movie “starring” Corbin Bernsen, Connie Sellecca, and the world’s most annoying kid. I’d love to see it dissected by scott and/or s.z.

Dogs and Wingnuts

I’m a little distracted today, so you’ll be getting factory-seconds snark today.  My excuse for the poor quality of my mockery is that yesterday the local animal rescue group (not the little one ran by the nice but incompetent lady in the next county, but the professional but overcrowded one in this county) called and asked if I’d take an emergency rescue case.

It seems that a college student had found a dog a few months ago, and asked the rescue group if they would help her find a home for it. They said yes, and set up appointments to get the dog spayed at their expense. About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting interested in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant (further conversation revealed that the girl had failed to keep the appointment for neutering, and when she learned of the dog’s delicate condition, decided to let her have the puppies, because she thought it would be cheaper than having her operated on). Well, the head of this rescue group is a rather blunt, outspoken woman, and she apparently told the girl what she thought of her irresponsibility. So, the girl told her to go to hell.

Anyway, yesterday the girl called up the rescue group again and said that she was moving, and that they’d have to take the dog and the remaining puppies (there had been nine of them, but the girl had found homes, of dubious quality, for five) that day or she’d take them to the pound.

The rescue leader wanted nothing to do with the girl at this point, but did ask her assistant to see what she could do to save the dogs from this girl’s stupidity. So, the assistant, whom I’d met a few years ago when I adopted Jet Jaguar, asked me if I could take the mother dog. Shannon (the assistant) arranged for the puppies to be taken to an already scheduled adoption event, where I hope they all found responsible owners who will make sure they’re spayed and neutered.

So, I have Miss Lady for now. (Shannon said they will take her to the next adoption event, but they want to get her spayed first.) You can see her photo and read about her here.

Lady is a good dog, and other than waking me up five times during the night because she had to go outside (I didn’t know what she was used to eating, and gave her the same food I feed my dogs, which she loved, but which apparently didn’t agree with her), she was been no trouble at all. Well, she does want to go on more walks than I am used to, but she is much better behaved on a leash than my own little terrorists, so I guess it’s a wash.

Now, on to the slightly defective snark. Let’s now give our attention to Renew America’s Bryan Fischer, and his compelling piece entitled “Voices of tolerance demand ouster of Dennis Prager.”
Jewish columnist Dennis Prager, who argued in a recent column that newly-elected Congressman Keith Ellison should use the Bible rather than the Koran in his ceremonial swearing-in (or both), has now predictably been branded “bigoted, intolerant, and divisive” for exercising his freedom of speech.
Okay, let’s stop right there and address the popular wingnut misapprehension that the First Amendment not only gives you the right to express your views without government intervention, but that it also immunizes you from criticism. Sorry, wingnuts, it doesn’t work that way. Dennis has the right to say that Ellison should be required to use some other faith’s holy book in this ceremony, just as other people have the right to say that Prager is a bigoted, intolerant, divisive doofus. That’s how it work, kiddies. If you don’t like it, I guess your only recourse is to start your own country (Wingnuttia), with a slightly different Bill of Rights.

But let’s move on to the part where Bryan shows his true genius:
The Bible has historically been used in swearing-in ceremonies because of its insistence on the sacredness of promises made in public oaths. It is better, the Bible says, not to make an oath before God at all than to make an oath and then not keep it.
Um, actually Jesus said, “Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord Thu oaths. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool; neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. … But let all your communications be, Yea. yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.”

So, I guess if you believe in the teachings of the Bible, you should probably not use it during swearing-in ceremonies.

But back to Bryan:
A legislator who swears on the Bible is calling the God of the Bible as his witness that he will faithfully uphold the duties of his office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. He is essentially asking God to hold him accountable to such a promise, to bless him if he keeps his word and to judge him if he does not.But in Islamic theology, it is permissible to lie to infidels if it will provide strategic advantage for the Islamic cause.
We’ll skip all the parts in the Old Testament where people lied to infidels to get strategic advantage. (Okay, we’ll mention one: Abraham 12:11-20 — it’s where Abraham lied to Pharaoh and said that his wife was his sister.) But we want to know if Bryan is really suggesting that Congressman Ellison used the Koran in this ceremonial swearing-in so that he could betray his oath and then later say to his constituents, “Hey, I had my fingers crossed during that ceremony, so there’s nothing you can do to me, suckers!”
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer, contains what is called the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is “telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with the intention to mislead.” This is the Islamic version of crossing your fingers behind your back when telling a lie.
Okay, I guess I have my answer.
American citizens have a right to know if Ellison adheres to this tenet of Islamic faith. This is directly relevant to his swearing in, for the oath requires him to swear allegiance to the Constitution “without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.”
And I think we American citizens have the right to know if all Christian congressmen hold to the idea that it’s okay to disregard what Jesus said about oaths — and if so, what other of His teachings do they feel free to ignore. Oh, and we should also find out their policy on claiming that their wives are their sisters, or their mistresses are their wives, etc.
Further, Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs, and does not accept Israel’s right even to exist. Exterminating the Jewish state is a declared goal of virtually every Islamic state and organization in the world. Does Ellison share this view with his fellow Muslims, and if not, why not? If he does not believe that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs, why is he taking an oath on a sacred book that says they are?
Okay, now Bryan is getting a little too silly (and bigoted, intolerant, and stupid) for even us to deal with. But we will apologize for violating his right to free speech (i.e., criticizing his column) if he will tell us where in the Koran it says that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs. (We know that there is a passage where some a town, presumably Jewish, broke Jewish law by fishing on the Sabbath, and were dismissed with “Be ye apes, despised and rejected,” but that’s not even close to Bryan’s claim.) Oh, and then we want him to swear on the Bible that he hasn’t told us any lies about Islam in this piece. We’ll wait for his response.

But I guess by now you want to know a little bit more about Bryan:
Bryan Fischer is the Executive Director of the Idaho Values Alliance, whose mission is to make Idaho the friendliest place in the world
Okay, that’s a nice goal! I guess Bryan and his group say hi to everyone, bake cookies for the new neighbors, and try to make everyone feel welcome in the potato state. More power to you, Bryan!
. . . to raise a family.
Oops, I spoke too soon! I am now guessing that Bryan’s real mission is to make Idaho the least friendly place in the world for gays.
He has an undergradaute degree in Philosophy (from Stanford University) and a graduate degree in theology.
And I’m going to do some more guessing, and, based on his knowlege of both the Bible and the Koran, posit that the graduate degree came from one of the many fine wingnut theology institutes one can find on the internet. I am also going to speculate that Bryan’s undergraduate degree was awarded by the Standford University of Theology, Barbering, and Shoe Repair, in lovely Stanford, ID.

29 Responses to “Dogs and Wingnuts”

Man, good luck with Lady. What kind of asshole agrees to have a dog spayed and then skips the appointment? And doesn’t tell anyone!
I wonder if Bryan has as good an excuse for his entirely defective column. I’m betting not. I would personally expect someone to forsake an oath they took on someone else’s holy book before they forsake one on their own. I can only assume Bryan is stupid. The Bible is not a lie detector, even if you believe in it. It is certainly not if you don’t.
And considering that everybody with any brains ought to know by now that holy books are used not in the swearing but in the photo op, another phrase for which is “lying with pictures”, it seems especially idiotic to suggest that there’s any virtue in that for anyone. The whole point of the PR exercise is to display, in this case, what a good Christian you are. I’m almost positive Jesus had a few things to say about that, too.
I’ll leave aside the issue of whether tolerance requires one to tolerate bigotry (Seriously, is this a trick question? Should we be opposed to locking up kidnappers, too?), but would point out that “descended from pigs and apes”–even if an accurate characterization of their beliefs–is mild compared to what some of Bryan’s fellow Idahoans believe about Jews.
Thanks for playing, Bryan, but please consider more effective uses of your time, like making paperchains for the War Against The War On Christmas.
It’s wonderful how you rescue these poor critters. Dolly’s first rescuer sounds rather dumb, like my sister, who thought she wouldn’t get pregnant a 2nd time, because it took her 3 years the 1st time. Duh!
Do you think any of these fundys have ever read the teachings of Jeasus? A degree from Stanford? He probably bought one at the Stanford Mall Joke-shop. I have the strongest urge to use lots of !!! and ????? and capatalize everything. It must be catching. Quick! To Starbucks!
Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs
I must have been sick on the day back at the college.
Then again, if this information is provided by such expert as Robert Spencer, we have no choice but to believe him. I’m sure he is an objective scholar without any agenda.
There are some bible verses that say some rather nasty things about the Jews. I don’t have time to look it up, but it’s something about the crucifiction. Something about Jews being “cast into furnaces of fire” and there being “much wailing and gnashing of teeth”. Don’t call someone else’s house dirty until you clean up your own. It’s not that we shouldn’t swear on the Bible. It’s that the “Jewish” argument is bunk.
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer…
Well, I guess a Stanford philosophy degree doesn’t confer the ability to construct an argument, or provide a shield against losing all your money in a pea-shake game, for that matter. So there’s one guy to go to for expert exegesis on Islam, and that’s…Robert Spencer of the ruderal “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam”? Michelle Malkinses’ source for that big “the Armanious family murders was an Islamic hit” exposé? I wonder how many undergraduate papers get accepted in the Stanford philosophy program with that sort of scholarship? An eight-page midterm on Marx with Ayn Rand as the sole authority? A final on Martin Luther King’s use of the Gandhian concept of satyagrapha, with a bibliography consisting of old Bill Buckley National Review pieces?
Forgive the snark but:
About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant…
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
Good point,John. But,um, you see…
I did say this was defective snark, right?
I’m a little distracted today, so you’ll be getting factory-seconds snark today.
This isn’t factory seconds snark! It’s first rate!
But we want to know if Bryan is really suggesting that Congressman Ellison used the Koran in this ceremonial swearing-in so that he could betray his oath and then later say to his constituents, “Hey, I had my fingers crossed during that ceremony, so there’s nothing you can do to me, suckers!”
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer, contains what is called the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is “telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with the intention to mislead.” This is the Islamic version of crossing your fingers behind your back when telling a lie.
Okay, I guess I have my answer.
And you’re walking on air!
Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs.
Where in the fuck do they get this shit? Arabs believe they are descended from Abraham through Ishmael and Jews are descended through Isaac. Where the pigs and apes come in perplexes me.
Man, I thought all the animals created a bad smell but a shelter run by an incontinent woman must be unbearable.
“Apes and pigs”? Moi?
I think I’ll stay in my own private Idaho, thanks very much, Bryan.
Good luck with Lady. The irresponsibility of some people… How many rescue cases do you share your home with? I lost track. Meanwhile, here are our rescue cases: “http://pics.livejournal.com/serge_lj/gallery/00001ayb”
“The Bible has historically been used in swearing-in ceremonies”
Bryan’s first lie – the Bible has never been used to swear in Congressmen. Why bother reading from there?
set up appointments to get the dog spayed and neutered
Spayed and neutered, Gracie?
[/George Burns]
Bryan’s real mission is to make Idaho the least friendly place in the world for gays
No need. I used to live in Idaho, and believe me, that field was plowed and planted a long time ago.
Idahoans also hate outsiders. I remember an incident in Nampa a number of years ago. A man from New Mexico came to visit relatives, and they went out to dinner somewhere. Afterwards the man returned to his car, which of course sported New Mexico plates, and found a note on his windshield: “Welcome to Idaho. Now please leave!”
Somehow I think if the plates had read “New Jersey,” he’d have gotten a (slightly) less chilly welcome. But maybe that’s just my inner cynic talking…
Idaho, such a friendly place, yes. The joke here in The Other Washington is that our state motto is “We’re Left Of Idaho, But Who Isn’t?”
Oregon, mind you, for years had a border sign that declared, “You Are Now Leaving Oregon. Thank You.”
And, of course, here in Seattle, we can go for decades without ever meeting our neighbors.
Might be something in the water up in this corner of the country.
I’m kinda speechless about the whole apes and pigs thing so I’ll just comment on the dog. When I adopted a cat in the same situation many, many years ago, she relactated and started nursing my [sold separately] kitten. This went on for, I believe, five years. Might want to keep an eye on the little ones.
Oh, also – MERRY CHRISTMAS!
[and Happy New Year]
[and have a nice Boxing Day]
[and what's that thing on January 6? Yeah, enjoy that too.]
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
Which brings to mind that master of snark, Groucho. “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”
So … umm … assuming you do take your Congressional oath on the Bible … and you don’t quite believe that Methuselah was really 700 years old and Noah was actually 500 years old … then … you must be “crossing your fingers.”
Or something.
Just checking.
Me, I like this part:
“A legislator who swears on the Bible is calling the God of the Bible as his witness that he will faithfully uphold the duties of his office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
A legislator who swears on the Koran is doing the exact same thing, as the god described in both books is the guy who talked to Abraham.
The god of the Koran is the god of the Bible.
Don’t bother making fun of Bryan. I do it at regular intervals, yet he never changes except that now he’ll source his outragious claims. Of course all the cites are to Daddy Dobson or World Nuts Daily. He’s pretty impervious to logic and facts, much like all the other theocratic oafs on the far fringes of the right.
saying Jews are descended from apes surely means that muslims believe in Evolution. No wonder Bryan hates them so.
“Islam…does not accept Israel’s right even to exist.”
This bit however is completely true. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Mohammed accept Israel’s right to exist, not even within it’s 1948 borders
Yeah but Christopher, Mohammed had nice things to say about Jesus Christ and these fundies hate Jesus because he keeps harping on loving poor people, the Golden Rule, and all that other secular communist crap.
BTW, for those of you with iTunes that want to hear a 30-second sample of the Heat Miser/Snow Miser song(s), here are links to a couple of samples: by Big Bad VooDoo Daddy, and by Rich Chambers.
Hmm. Why the hell did I post that in this thread? IT IS A MYSTERY!!1!
We shouldn’t force anyone to swear an oath on the Bible, the Quran or the Torah. They should pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. I find it laughable that some of you mealy-mouthed, civil liberty types never spent a day in the military, nor have your parents, nor will your kids. Remember, you are only free to carry on your criticisms, some of which are justified, because somebody died to protect that right. I am not a Christian. I am an atheist who served in this country’s armed forces. A country that has it roots in the Christian faith. One doesn’t have to be a believer to respect this country’s religious traditions. Those who serve in the armed forces and die fighting for this country are mostly Christian. At least acknowledge that much, at least acknowledge that some things exist as truth outside the hazy,borderless nebulas in which you reside.
Taking an oath on the Bible is not about swearing allegience to a religion as much as it is about swearing allegience to this country and acknowledging its long standing traditions which have their foundation in the Judeo-Christian religious traditions. This is the way it is. If that’s a threat to anyone out there, its more a reflection of their religious like closed-mindedness and certainly not a credit to their post-modern enlightenment which asks us to forsake all the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual inorder to worship at the alter of their new god:anything goes.
Roger, please kiss my Navy veteran ass.
I too am an atheist who served in my country’s armed forces. So were a few of my uncles and 2 grandfathers. And what the hell is your problem with “civil liberty types?” Where do you think your civil liberties come from? The Bible? No, fool. They come from the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights. Remember your own oath of service, the one where you swore to defend the Constitution (not the Bible, nor “American tradition” nor the President). Those civil liberties that you so often deride ARE American traditions, they ARE our freedom. They require defending by every generation, for they are continuously under assault by those who would seek power or degrade others’ freedoms. That defense isn’t military, it’s civil. As in “civil rights.” As in ACLU… Why do so many so-called American patriots so hate an organization dedicated to preserving American freedom?
Anyway… I served with people of all faiths and people of none at all. Yeah, most of those who were religious at all said they were Christians, yet very, very few of them ever went to the chaplain’s services. Actually, the ones who did were a very small minority. Lots of people would say they were Christian if asked. And most of them would also be first in line at the brothels and bars, just as nearly all the tourists who jam the casinos in Vegas will claim, if asked, to be Christians.
If you really think military people are somehow more virtuous than the rest of the country, you’re an idiot. Or else you never actually spent much time with your fellow servicemen. I’ve never known a group of people who were more hedonist, “anything goes,” sort of party animals than when I was in the Navy (far more so than any of the college students I know today). Talk about military traditions… drinking, whoring, gambling, fighting, hazing, etc. are pretty much expected behavior from every soldier and sailor. Nothing new, nor particularly American, about that. Military types party hearty.
Is this news to you?
What were you, a chaplain or something? You must have been an officer, to be so completely out of touch with the darker side of military culture.
BTW, no congressvarmint has ever been sworn in on any bible, koran, torah, complete works of Shakespeare, or whatever. Any photos you may have seen with their hand on a book are simply photo ops done after the official swearing-in, which is entirely secular. And this is as it should be, as you point out.
But this stuff about religious tradition in America? I got more news for you- this country’s unique values are not its religious traditions (every country has those), our heritage are its secular values. Our traditions of individualism and liberty and tolerance owe a lot more to John Locke than John 3:16. The Christian religious traditions to which you refer are not American- they are Christian.
Most of the “founding fathers” were not actually Christian, you know. They were Deists. This is not atheism, exactly, but it certainly is not Christianism either. Look it up, if you’re not clear on the difference.
Your comment is bizarre. You claim to be an atheist, but you also praise “the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual” as if they were American traditions worthy of preservation. If you do not hold to the Christian belief, why would you defend those who pervert it to their own ends, perverting American politics in the process? Or is it ok for you that others would, and are, pushing their religious ideas onto our secular government?
These rituals are not harmless, if they become official state requirements to hold office. Duh. They allow people to demonize non-believers like us as being somehow un-American. “He won’t swear on the Bible, because he doesn’t believe in Christian traditions! Christian traditions are American traditions! He doesn’t believe in America!”
This is exactly the argument they, and you, make. Meanwhile, you denounce the American tradition of citizens defending their own freedom as “mealy mouthed civil liberty types.” And then go on to lecture us about American traditions… WTF?
There are millions of Christians in this country who do not consider you, nor me, to be “true” Americans because of our lack of Christian faith. Our military service means diddley. We are atheists, therefore we are un-American, based on YOUR argument. They use religious belief, or lack, to judge the patriotism of others. Christian rituals adapted by the state, like swearing on the bible, are a big part of that.
Harmless, you say? Wake the fuck up.
Anyway, “swearing on the Bible” is, if you read the post, clearly forbidden by the Bible itself in red-letter Jesus-text. It is not an affirmation or acknowlegement of Judeo-Christian values in American tradition- it is saying, “May God strike me dead if I’m lying,” and it has not actually stopped anyone from lying under oath, Christian or not.
Further, it is NOT the state’s business to even affirm or acknowlege those beliefs AS IF they were the foundation of American tradition when, in truth, the opposite is true.
For the state to require people to make such an ahistorical affirmation would be a clear establishment of religion- it’s saying, as you do, that America is Christian first.
That “descended from pigs and apes” thing is from a Muslim theologian (I am really not sure of the name or the time period), but that is not in the Koran. You could argue that you could get different views of the Jewish and Christian peoples from there.
Re: kitman. Catholic theologians believe that is possible to have mental reservations if your intentions are good. So, don’t believe a thing a Catholic says to you.
Also, if Ellison did take the oath on a Bible, they would have attacked him for swearing a false oath on a book he doesn’t believe in.
I regard what pundits like Prager and Spencer say about what Muslims believe the same way I regard a skinhead quoting the Talmud. They might be right, they might be wrong, but they have too big an axe to grind to be taken seriously.
(Also, contrary to their idea of Europe as Enlightenment bulwark, World War II brought hating Jewish people European style to the Arab Muslim countries. This was one of many parts to it, but that is one that sticks out most in my mind. I mean, you think that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just materialized one day in Cairo?)
Oh, my gosh, teach me to write before reading. Change ‘Prager and Spencer’ to ‘Fischer and Spencer’.
Wait, is Bryan related to Bobby Fischer . . .