I’m a little distracted today, so you’ll be getting factory-seconds snark today. My excuse for the poor quality of my mockery is that yesterday the local animal rescue group (not the little one ran by the nice but incompetent lady in the next county, but the professional but overcrowded one in this county) called and asked if I’d take an emergency rescue case.
It seems that a college student had found a dog a few months ago, and asked the rescue group if they would help her find a home for it. They said yes, and set up appointments to get the dog spayed at their expense. About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting interested in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant (further conversation revealed that the girl had failed to keep the appointment for neutering, and when she learned of the dog’s delicate condition, decided to let her have the puppies, because she thought it would be cheaper than having her operated on). Well, the head of this rescue group is a rather blunt, outspoken woman, and she apparently told the girl what she thought of her irresponsibility. So, the girl told her to go to hell.
Anyway, yesterday the girl called up the rescue group again and said that she was moving, and that they’d have to take the dog and the remaining puppies (there had been nine of them, but the girl had found homes, of dubious quality, for five) that day or she’d take them to the pound.
The rescue leader wanted nothing to do with the girl at this point, but did ask her assistant to see what she could do to save the dogs from this girl’s stupidity. So, the assistant, whom I’d met a few years ago when I adopted Jet Jaguar, asked me if I could take the mother dog. Shannon (the assistant) arranged for the puppies to be taken to an already scheduled adoption event, where I hope they all found responsible owners who will make sure they’re spayed and neutered.
So, I have Miss Lady for now. (Shannon said they will take her to the next adoption event, but they want to get her spayed first.) You can see her photo and read about her here.
Lady is a good dog, and other than waking me up five times during the night because she had to go outside (I didn’t know what she was used to eating, and gave her the same food I feed my dogs, which she loved, but which apparently didn’t agree with her), she was been no trouble at all. Well, she does want to go on more walks than I am used to, but she is much better behaved on a leash than my own little terrorists, so I guess it’s a wash.
Now, on to the slightly defective snark. Let’s now give our attention to Renew America’s Bryan Fischer, and his compelling piece entitled “Voices of tolerance demand ouster of Dennis Prager.”
But let’s move on to the part where Bryan shows his true genius:
So, I guess if you believe in the teachings of the Bible, you should probably not use it during swearing-in ceremonies.
But back to Bryan:
But I guess by now you want to know a little bit more about Bryan:
It seems that a college student had found a dog a few months ago, and asked the rescue group if they would help her find a home for it. They said yes, and set up appointments to get the dog spayed at their expense. About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting interested in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant (further conversation revealed that the girl had failed to keep the appointment for neutering, and when she learned of the dog’s delicate condition, decided to let her have the puppies, because she thought it would be cheaper than having her operated on). Well, the head of this rescue group is a rather blunt, outspoken woman, and she apparently told the girl what she thought of her irresponsibility. So, the girl told her to go to hell.
Anyway, yesterday the girl called up the rescue group again and said that she was moving, and that they’d have to take the dog and the remaining puppies (there had been nine of them, but the girl had found homes, of dubious quality, for five) that day or she’d take them to the pound.
The rescue leader wanted nothing to do with the girl at this point, but did ask her assistant to see what she could do to save the dogs from this girl’s stupidity. So, the assistant, whom I’d met a few years ago when I adopted Jet Jaguar, asked me if I could take the mother dog. Shannon (the assistant) arranged for the puppies to be taken to an already scheduled adoption event, where I hope they all found responsible owners who will make sure they’re spayed and neutered.
So, I have Miss Lady for now. (Shannon said they will take her to the next adoption event, but they want to get her spayed first.) You can see her photo and read about her here.
Lady is a good dog, and other than waking me up five times during the night because she had to go outside (I didn’t know what she was used to eating, and gave her the same food I feed my dogs, which she loved, but which apparently didn’t agree with her), she was been no trouble at all. Well, she does want to go on more walks than I am used to, but she is much better behaved on a leash than my own little terrorists, so I guess it’s a wash.
Now, on to the slightly defective snark. Let’s now give our attention to Renew America’s Bryan Fischer, and his compelling piece entitled “Voices of tolerance demand ouster of Dennis Prager.”
Jewish columnist Dennis Prager, who argued in a recent column that newly-elected Congressman Keith Ellison should use the Bible rather than the Koran in his ceremonial swearing-in (or both), has now predictably been branded “bigoted, intolerant, and divisive” for exercising his freedom of speech.Okay, let’s stop right there and address the popular wingnut misapprehension that the First Amendment not only gives you the right to express your views without government intervention, but that it also immunizes you from criticism. Sorry, wingnuts, it doesn’t work that way. Dennis has the right to say that Ellison should be required to use some other faith’s holy book in this ceremony, just as other people have the right to say that Prager is a bigoted, intolerant, divisive doofus. That’s how it work, kiddies. If you don’t like it, I guess your only recourse is to start your own country (Wingnuttia), with a slightly different Bill of Rights.
But let’s move on to the part where Bryan shows his true genius:
The Bible has historically been used in swearing-in ceremonies because of its insistence on the sacredness of promises made in public oaths. It is better, the Bible says, not to make an oath before God at all than to make an oath and then not keep it.Um, actually Jesus said, “Ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord Thu oaths. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool; neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. … But let all your communications be, Yea. yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.”
So, I guess if you believe in the teachings of the Bible, you should probably not use it during swearing-in ceremonies.
But back to Bryan:
A legislator who swears on the Bible is calling the God of the Bible as his witness that he will faithfully uphold the duties of his office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. He is essentially asking God to hold him accountable to such a promise, to bless him if he keeps his word and to judge him if he does not.But in Islamic theology, it is permissible to lie to infidels if it will provide strategic advantage for the Islamic cause.We’ll skip all the parts in the Old Testament where people lied to infidels to get strategic advantage. (Okay, we’ll mention one: Abraham 12:11-20 — it’s where Abraham lied to Pharaoh and said that his wife was his sister.) But we want to know if Bryan is really suggesting that Congressman Ellison used the Koran in this ceremonial swearing-in so that he could betray his oath and then later say to his constituents, “Hey, I had my fingers crossed during that ceremony, so there’s nothing you can do to me, suckers!”
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer, contains what is called the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is “telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with the intention to mislead.” This is the Islamic version of crossing your fingers behind your back when telling a lie.Okay, I guess I have my answer.
American citizens have a right to know if Ellison adheres to this tenet of Islamic faith. This is directly relevant to his swearing in, for the oath requires him to swear allegiance to the Constitution “without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.”And I think we American citizens have the right to know if all Christian congressmen hold to the idea that it’s okay to disregard what Jesus said about oaths — and if so, what other of His teachings do they feel free to ignore. Oh, and we should also find out their policy on claiming that their wives are their sisters, or their mistresses are their wives, etc.
Further, Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs, and does not accept Israel’s right even to exist. Exterminating the Jewish state is a declared goal of virtually every Islamic state and organization in the world. Does Ellison share this view with his fellow Muslims, and if not, why not? If he does not believe that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs, why is he taking an oath on a sacred book that says they are?Okay, now Bryan is getting a little too silly (and bigoted, intolerant, and stupid) for even us to deal with. But we will apologize for violating his right to free speech (i.e., criticizing his column) if he will tell us where in the Koran it says that Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs. (We know that there is a passage where some a town, presumably Jewish, broke Jewish law by fishing on the Sabbath, and were dismissed with “Be ye apes, despised and rejected,” but that’s not even close to Bryan’s claim.) Oh, and then we want him to swear on the Bible that he hasn’t told us any lies about Islam in this piece. We’ll wait for his response.
But I guess by now you want to know a little bit more about Bryan:
Bryan Fischer is the Executive Director of the Idaho Values Alliance, whose mission is to make Idaho the friendliest place in the worldOkay, that’s a nice goal! I guess Bryan and his group say hi to everyone, bake cookies for the new neighbors, and try to make everyone feel welcome in the potato state. More power to you, Bryan!
. . . to raise a family.Oops, I spoke too soon! I am now guessing that Bryan’s real mission is to make Idaho the least friendly place in the world for gays.
He has an undergradaute degree in Philosophy (from Stanford University) and a graduate degree in theology.And I’m going to do some more guessing, and, based on his knowlege of both the Bible and the Koran, posit that the graduate degree came from one of the many fine wingnut theology institutes one can find on the internet. I am also going to speculate that Bryan’s undergraduate degree was awarded by the Standford University of Theology, Barbering, and Shoe Repair, in lovely Stanford, ID.
29 Responses to “Dogs and Wingnuts”
Man, good luck with Lady. What kind of asshole agrees to have a dog spayed and then skips the appointment? And doesn’t tell anyone!
I wonder if Bryan has as good an excuse for his entirely defective column. I’m betting not. I would personally expect someone to forsake an oath they took on someone else’s holy book before they forsake one on their own. I can only assume Bryan is stupid. The Bible is not a lie detector, even if you believe in it. It is certainly not if you don’t.
And considering that everybody with any brains ought to know by now that holy books are used not in the swearing but in the photo op, another phrase for which is “lying with pictures”, it seems especially idiotic to suggest that there’s any virtue in that for anyone. The whole point of the PR exercise is to display, in this case, what a good Christian you are. I’m almost positive Jesus had a few things to say about that, too.
I’ll leave aside the issue of whether tolerance requires one to tolerate bigotry (Seriously, is this a trick question? Should we be opposed to locking up kidnappers, too?), but would point out that “descended from pigs and apes”–even if an accurate characterization of their beliefs–is mild compared to what some of Bryan’s fellow Idahoans believe about Jews.
Thanks for playing, Bryan, but please consider more effective uses of your time, like making paperchains for the War Against The War On Christmas.
I wonder if Bryan has as good an excuse for his entirely defective column. I’m betting not. I would personally expect someone to forsake an oath they took on someone else’s holy book before they forsake one on their own. I can only assume Bryan is stupid. The Bible is not a lie detector, even if you believe in it. It is certainly not if you don’t.
And considering that everybody with any brains ought to know by now that holy books are used not in the swearing but in the photo op, another phrase for which is “lying with pictures”, it seems especially idiotic to suggest that there’s any virtue in that for anyone. The whole point of the PR exercise is to display, in this case, what a good Christian you are. I’m almost positive Jesus had a few things to say about that, too.
I’ll leave aside the issue of whether tolerance requires one to tolerate bigotry (Seriously, is this a trick question? Should we be opposed to locking up kidnappers, too?), but would point out that “descended from pigs and apes”–even if an accurate characterization of their beliefs–is mild compared to what some of Bryan’s fellow Idahoans believe about Jews.
Thanks for playing, Bryan, but please consider more effective uses of your time, like making paperchains for the War Against The War On Christmas.
It’s wonderful how you rescue these poor critters. Dolly’s first rescuer sounds rather dumb, like my sister, who thought she wouldn’t get pregnant a 2nd time, because it took her 3 years the 1st time. Duh!
Do you think any of these fundys have ever read the teachings of Jeasus? A degree from Stanford? He probably bought one at the Stanford Mall Joke-shop. I have the strongest urge to use lots of !!! and ????? and capatalize everything. It must be catching. Quick! To Starbucks!
Do you think any of these fundys have ever read the teachings of Jeasus? A degree from Stanford? He probably bought one at the Stanford Mall Joke-shop. I have the strongest urge to use lots of !!! and ????? and capatalize everything. It must be catching. Quick! To Starbucks!
Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs
I must have been sick on the day back at the college.
Then again, if this information is provided by such expert as Robert Spencer, we have no choice but to believe him. I’m sure he is an objective scholar without any agenda.
I must have been sick on the day back at the college.
Then again, if this information is provided by such expert as Robert Spencer, we have no choice but to believe him. I’m sure he is an objective scholar without any agenda.
There are some bible verses that say some rather nasty things about the Jews. I don’t have time to look it up, but it’s something about the crucifiction. Something about Jews being “cast into furnaces of fire” and there being “much wailing and gnashing of teeth”. Don’t call someone else’s house dirty until you clean up your own. It’s not that we shouldn’t swear on the Bible. It’s that the “Jewish” argument is bunk.
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer…
Well, I guess a Stanford philosophy degree doesn’t confer the ability to construct an argument, or provide a shield against losing all your money in a pea-shake game, for that matter. So there’s one guy to go to for expert exegesis on Islam, and that’s…Robert Spencer of the ruderal “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam”? Michelle Malkinses’ source for that big “the Armanious family murders was an Islamic hit” exposé? I wonder how many undergraduate papers get accepted in the Stanford philosophy program with that sort of scholarship? An eight-page midterm on Marx with Ayn Rand as the sole authority? A final on Martin Luther King’s use of the Gandhian concept of satyagrapha, with a bibliography consisting of old Bill Buckley National Review pieces?
Well, I guess a Stanford philosophy degree doesn’t confer the ability to construct an argument, or provide a shield against losing all your money in a pea-shake game, for that matter. So there’s one guy to go to for expert exegesis on Islam, and that’s…Robert Spencer of the ruderal “Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam”? Michelle Malkinses’ source for that big “the Armanious family murders was an Islamic hit” exposé? I wonder how many undergraduate papers get accepted in the Stanford philosophy program with that sort of scholarship? An eight-page midterm on Marx with Ayn Rand as the sole authority? A final on Martin Luther King’s use of the Gandhian concept of satyagrapha, with a bibliography consisting of old Bill Buckley National Review pieces?
Forgive the snark but:
About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant…
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
About a month later, they called the girl to say they’d found someone interesting in the dog, and the girl let them know that in the mean time the dog had gotten pregnant…
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
I’m a little distracted today, so you’ll be getting factory-seconds snark today.
This isn’t factory seconds snark! It’s first rate!
But we want to know if Bryan is really suggesting that Congressman Ellison used the Koran in this ceremonial swearing-in so that he could betray his oath and then later say to his constituents, “Hey, I had my fingers crossed during that ceremony, so there’s nothing you can do to me, suckers!”
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer, contains what is called the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is “telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with the intention to mislead.” This is the Islamic version of crossing your fingers behind your back when telling a lie.
Okay, I guess I have my answer.
And you’re walking on air!
This isn’t factory seconds snark! It’s first rate!
But we want to know if Bryan is really suggesting that Congressman Ellison used the Koran in this ceremonial swearing-in so that he could betray his oath and then later say to his constituents, “Hey, I had my fingers crossed during that ceremony, so there’s nothing you can do to me, suckers!”
Islamic theology, according to expert Robert Spencer, contains what is called the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is “telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with the intention to mislead.” This is the Islamic version of crossing your fingers behind your back when telling a lie.
Okay, I guess I have my answer.
And you’re walking on air!
Islam regards Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs.
Where in the fuck do they get this shit? Arabs believe they are descended from Abraham through Ishmael and Jews are descended through Isaac. Where the pigs and apes come in perplexes me.
Where in the fuck do they get this shit? Arabs believe they are descended from Abraham through Ishmael and Jews are descended through Isaac. Where the pigs and apes come in perplexes me.
Man, I thought all the animals created a bad smell but a shelter run by an incontinent woman must be unbearable.
“Apes and pigs”? Moi?
I think I’ll stay in my own private Idaho, thanks very much, Bryan.
I think I’ll stay in my own private Idaho, thanks very much, Bryan.
Good luck with Lady. The irresponsibility of some people… How many rescue cases do you share your home with? I lost track. Meanwhile, here are our rescue cases: “http://pics.livejournal.com/serge_lj/gallery/00001ayb”
“The Bible has historically been used in swearing-in ceremonies”
Bryan’s first lie – the Bible has never been used to swear in Congressmen. Why bother reading from there?
Bryan’s first lie – the Bible has never been used to swear in Congressmen. Why bother reading from there?
set up appointments to get the dog spayed and neutered
Spayed and neutered, Gracie?
[/George Burns]
Spayed and neutered, Gracie?
[/George Burns]
Bryan’s real mission is to make Idaho the least friendly place in the world for gays
No need. I used to live in Idaho, and believe me, that field was plowed and planted a long time ago.
Idahoans also hate outsiders. I remember an incident in Nampa a number of years ago. A man from New Mexico came to visit relatives, and they went out to dinner somewhere. Afterwards the man returned to his car, which of course sported New Mexico plates, and found a note on his windshield: “Welcome to Idaho. Now please leave!”
Somehow I think if the plates had read “New Jersey,” he’d have gotten a (slightly) less chilly welcome. But maybe that’s just my inner cynic talking…
No need. I used to live in Idaho, and believe me, that field was plowed and planted a long time ago.
Idahoans also hate outsiders. I remember an incident in Nampa a number of years ago. A man from New Mexico came to visit relatives, and they went out to dinner somewhere. Afterwards the man returned to his car, which of course sported New Mexico plates, and found a note on his windshield: “Welcome to Idaho. Now please leave!”
Somehow I think if the plates had read “New Jersey,” he’d have gotten a (slightly) less chilly welcome. But maybe that’s just my inner cynic talking…
Idaho, such a friendly place, yes. The joke here in The Other Washington is that our state motto is “We’re Left Of Idaho, But Who Isn’t?”
Oregon, mind you, for years had a border sign that declared, “You Are Now Leaving Oregon. Thank You.”
And, of course, here in Seattle, we can go for decades without ever meeting our neighbors.
Might be something in the water up in this corner of the country.
Oregon, mind you, for years had a border sign that declared, “You Are Now Leaving Oregon. Thank You.”
And, of course, here in Seattle, we can go for decades without ever meeting our neighbors.
Might be something in the water up in this corner of the country.
I’m kinda speechless about the whole apes and pigs thing so I’ll just comment on the dog. When I adopted a cat in the same situation many, many years ago, she relactated and started nursing my [sold separately] kitten. This went on for, I believe, five years. Might want to keep an eye on the little ones.
Oh, also – MERRY CHRISTMAS!
[and Happy New Year]
[and have a nice Boxing Day]
[and what's that thing on January 6? Yeah, enjoy that too.]
Oh, also – MERRY CHRISTMAS!
[and Happy New Year]
[and have a nice Boxing Day]
[and what's that thing on January 6? Yeah, enjoy that too.]
I’d think that finding anyone in the dog would be interesting.
Which brings to mind that master of snark, Groucho. “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”
Which brings to mind that master of snark, Groucho. “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”
So … umm … assuming you do take your Congressional oath on the Bible … and you don’t quite believe that Methuselah was really 700 years old and Noah was actually 500 years old … then … you must be “crossing your fingers.”
Or something.
Just checking.
Or something.
Just checking.
Me, I like this part:
“A legislator who swears on the Bible is calling the God of the Bible as his witness that he will faithfully uphold the duties of his office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
A legislator who swears on the Koran is doing the exact same thing, as the god described in both books is the guy who talked to Abraham.
The god of the Koran is the god of the Bible.
“A legislator who swears on the Bible is calling the God of the Bible as his witness that he will faithfully uphold the duties of his office to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
A legislator who swears on the Koran is doing the exact same thing, as the god described in both books is the guy who talked to Abraham.
The god of the Koran is the god of the Bible.
Don’t bother making fun of Bryan. I do it at regular intervals, yet he never changes except that now he’ll source his outragious claims. Of course all the cites are to Daddy Dobson or World Nuts Daily. He’s pretty impervious to logic and facts, much like all the other theocratic oafs on the far fringes of the right.
saying Jews are descended from apes surely means that muslims believe in Evolution. No wonder Bryan hates them so.
“Islam…does not accept Israel’s right even to exist.”
This bit however is completely true. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Mohammed accept Israel’s right to exist, not even within it’s 1948 borders
“Islam…does not accept Israel’s right even to exist.”
This bit however is completely true. Nowhere in the Qur’an does Mohammed accept Israel’s right to exist, not even within it’s 1948 borders
Yeah but Christopher, Mohammed had nice things to say about Jesus Christ and these fundies hate Jesus because he keeps harping on loving poor people, the Golden Rule, and all that other secular communist crap.
BTW, for those of you with iTunes that want to hear a 30-second sample of the Heat Miser/Snow Miser song(s), here are links to a couple of samples: by Big Bad VooDoo Daddy, and by Rich Chambers.
Hmm. Why the hell did I post that in this thread? IT IS A MYSTERY!!1!
We shouldn’t force anyone to swear an oath on the Bible, the Quran or the Torah. They should pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. I find it laughable that some of you mealy-mouthed, civil liberty types never spent a day in the military, nor have your parents, nor will your kids. Remember, you are only free to carry on your criticisms, some of which are justified, because somebody died to protect that right. I am not a Christian. I am an atheist who served in this country’s armed forces. A country that has it roots in the Christian faith. One doesn’t have to be a believer to respect this country’s religious traditions. Those who serve in the armed forces and die fighting for this country are mostly Christian. At least acknowledge that much, at least acknowledge that some things exist as truth outside the hazy,borderless nebulas in which you reside.
Taking an oath on the Bible is not about swearing allegience to a religion as much as it is about swearing allegience to this country and acknowledging its long standing traditions which have their foundation in the Judeo-Christian religious traditions. This is the way it is. If that’s a threat to anyone out there, its more a reflection of their religious like closed-mindedness and certainly not a credit to their post-modern enlightenment which asks us to forsake all the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual inorder to worship at the alter of their new god:anything goes.
Taking an oath on the Bible is not about swearing allegience to a religion as much as it is about swearing allegience to this country and acknowledging its long standing traditions which have their foundation in the Judeo-Christian religious traditions. This is the way it is. If that’s a threat to anyone out there, its more a reflection of their religious like closed-mindedness and certainly not a credit to their post-modern enlightenment which asks us to forsake all the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual inorder to worship at the alter of their new god:anything goes.
Roger, please kiss my Navy veteran ass.
I too am an atheist who served in my country’s armed forces. So were a few of my uncles and 2 grandfathers. And what the hell is your problem with “civil liberty types?” Where do you think your civil liberties come from? The Bible? No, fool. They come from the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights. Remember your own oath of service, the one where you swore to defend the Constitution (not the Bible, nor “American tradition” nor the President). Those civil liberties that you so often deride ARE American traditions, they ARE our freedom. They require defending by every generation, for they are continuously under assault by those who would seek power or degrade others’ freedoms. That defense isn’t military, it’s civil. As in “civil rights.” As in ACLU… Why do so many so-called American patriots so hate an organization dedicated to preserving American freedom?
Anyway… I served with people of all faiths and people of none at all. Yeah, most of those who were religious at all said they were Christians, yet very, very few of them ever went to the chaplain’s services. Actually, the ones who did were a very small minority. Lots of people would say they were Christian if asked. And most of them would also be first in line at the brothels and bars, just as nearly all the tourists who jam the casinos in Vegas will claim, if asked, to be Christians.
If you really think military people are somehow more virtuous than the rest of the country, you’re an idiot. Or else you never actually spent much time with your fellow servicemen. I’ve never known a group of people who were more hedonist, “anything goes,” sort of party animals than when I was in the Navy (far more so than any of the college students I know today). Talk about military traditions… drinking, whoring, gambling, fighting, hazing, etc. are pretty much expected behavior from every soldier and sailor. Nothing new, nor particularly American, about that. Military types party hearty.
Is this news to you?
What were you, a chaplain or something? You must have been an officer, to be so completely out of touch with the darker side of military culture.
BTW, no congressvarmint has ever been sworn in on any bible, koran, torah, complete works of Shakespeare, or whatever. Any photos you may have seen with their hand on a book are simply photo ops done after the official swearing-in, which is entirely secular. And this is as it should be, as you point out.
But this stuff about religious tradition in America? I got more news for you- this country’s unique values are not its religious traditions (every country has those), our heritage are its secular values. Our traditions of individualism and liberty and tolerance owe a lot more to John Locke than John 3:16. The Christian religious traditions to which you refer are not American- they are Christian.
Most of the “founding fathers” were not actually Christian, you know. They were Deists. This is not atheism, exactly, but it certainly is not Christianism either. Look it up, if you’re not clear on the difference.
Your comment is bizarre. You claim to be an atheist, but you also praise “the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual” as if they were American traditions worthy of preservation. If you do not hold to the Christian belief, why would you defend those who pervert it to their own ends, perverting American politics in the process? Or is it ok for you that others would, and are, pushing their religious ideas onto our secular government?
These rituals are not harmless, if they become official state requirements to hold office. Duh. They allow people to demonize non-believers like us as being somehow un-American. “He won’t swear on the Bible, because he doesn’t believe in Christian traditions! Christian traditions are American traditions! He doesn’t believe in America!”
This is exactly the argument they, and you, make. Meanwhile, you denounce the American tradition of citizens defending their own freedom as “mealy mouthed civil liberty types.” And then go on to lecture us about American traditions… WTF?
There are millions of Christians in this country who do not consider you, nor me, to be “true” Americans because of our lack of Christian faith. Our military service means diddley. We are atheists, therefore we are un-American, based on YOUR argument. They use religious belief, or lack, to judge the patriotism of others. Christian rituals adapted by the state, like swearing on the bible, are a big part of that.
Harmless, you say? Wake the fuck up.
Anyway, “swearing on the Bible” is, if you read the post, clearly forbidden by the Bible itself in red-letter Jesus-text. It is not an affirmation or acknowlegement of Judeo-Christian values in American tradition- it is saying, “May God strike me dead if I’m lying,” and it has not actually stopped anyone from lying under oath, Christian or not.
Further, it is NOT the state’s business to even affirm or acknowlege those beliefs AS IF they were the foundation of American tradition when, in truth, the opposite is true.
For the state to require people to make such an ahistorical affirmation would be a clear establishment of religion- it’s saying, as you do, that America is Christian first.
I too am an atheist who served in my country’s armed forces. So were a few of my uncles and 2 grandfathers. And what the hell is your problem with “civil liberty types?” Where do you think your civil liberties come from? The Bible? No, fool. They come from the Constitution, specifically the Bill of Rights. Remember your own oath of service, the one where you swore to defend the Constitution (not the Bible, nor “American tradition” nor the President). Those civil liberties that you so often deride ARE American traditions, they ARE our freedom. They require defending by every generation, for they are continuously under assault by those who would seek power or degrade others’ freedoms. That defense isn’t military, it’s civil. As in “civil rights.” As in ACLU… Why do so many so-called American patriots so hate an organization dedicated to preserving American freedom?
Anyway… I served with people of all faiths and people of none at all. Yeah, most of those who were religious at all said they were Christians, yet very, very few of them ever went to the chaplain’s services. Actually, the ones who did were a very small minority. Lots of people would say they were Christian if asked. And most of them would also be first in line at the brothels and bars, just as nearly all the tourists who jam the casinos in Vegas will claim, if asked, to be Christians.
If you really think military people are somehow more virtuous than the rest of the country, you’re an idiot. Or else you never actually spent much time with your fellow servicemen. I’ve never known a group of people who were more hedonist, “anything goes,” sort of party animals than when I was in the Navy (far more so than any of the college students I know today). Talk about military traditions… drinking, whoring, gambling, fighting, hazing, etc. are pretty much expected behavior from every soldier and sailor. Nothing new, nor particularly American, about that. Military types party hearty.
Is this news to you?
What were you, a chaplain or something? You must have been an officer, to be so completely out of touch with the darker side of military culture.
BTW, no congressvarmint has ever been sworn in on any bible, koran, torah, complete works of Shakespeare, or whatever. Any photos you may have seen with their hand on a book are simply photo ops done after the official swearing-in, which is entirely secular. And this is as it should be, as you point out.
But this stuff about religious tradition in America? I got more news for you- this country’s unique values are not its religious traditions (every country has those), our heritage are its secular values. Our traditions of individualism and liberty and tolerance owe a lot more to John Locke than John 3:16. The Christian religious traditions to which you refer are not American- they are Christian.
Most of the “founding fathers” were not actually Christian, you know. They were Deists. This is not atheism, exactly, but it certainly is not Christianism either. Look it up, if you’re not clear on the difference.
Your comment is bizarre. You claim to be an atheist, but you also praise “the old gods, tradition, and harmless ritual” as if they were American traditions worthy of preservation. If you do not hold to the Christian belief, why would you defend those who pervert it to their own ends, perverting American politics in the process? Or is it ok for you that others would, and are, pushing their religious ideas onto our secular government?
These rituals are not harmless, if they become official state requirements to hold office. Duh. They allow people to demonize non-believers like us as being somehow un-American. “He won’t swear on the Bible, because he doesn’t believe in Christian traditions! Christian traditions are American traditions! He doesn’t believe in America!”
This is exactly the argument they, and you, make. Meanwhile, you denounce the American tradition of citizens defending their own freedom as “mealy mouthed civil liberty types.” And then go on to lecture us about American traditions… WTF?
There are millions of Christians in this country who do not consider you, nor me, to be “true” Americans because of our lack of Christian faith. Our military service means diddley. We are atheists, therefore we are un-American, based on YOUR argument. They use religious belief, or lack, to judge the patriotism of others. Christian rituals adapted by the state, like swearing on the bible, are a big part of that.
Harmless, you say? Wake the fuck up.
Anyway, “swearing on the Bible” is, if you read the post, clearly forbidden by the Bible itself in red-letter Jesus-text. It is not an affirmation or acknowlegement of Judeo-Christian values in American tradition- it is saying, “May God strike me dead if I’m lying,” and it has not actually stopped anyone from lying under oath, Christian or not.
Further, it is NOT the state’s business to even affirm or acknowlege those beliefs AS IF they were the foundation of American tradition when, in truth, the opposite is true.
For the state to require people to make such an ahistorical affirmation would be a clear establishment of religion- it’s saying, as you do, that America is Christian first.
That “descended from pigs and apes” thing is from a Muslim theologian (I am really not sure of the name or the time period), but that is not in the Koran. You could argue that you could get different views of the Jewish and Christian peoples from there.
Re: kitman. Catholic theologians believe that is possible to have mental reservations if your intentions are good. So, don’t believe a thing a Catholic says to you.
Also, if Ellison did take the oath on a Bible, they would have attacked him for swearing a false oath on a book he doesn’t believe in.
I regard what pundits like Prager and Spencer say about what Muslims believe the same way I regard a skinhead quoting the Talmud. They might be right, they might be wrong, but they have too big an axe to grind to be taken seriously.
(Also, contrary to their idea of Europe as Enlightenment bulwark, World War II brought hating Jewish people European style to the Arab Muslim countries. This was one of many parts to it, but that is one that sticks out most in my mind. I mean, you think that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just materialized one day in Cairo?)
Re: kitman. Catholic theologians believe that is possible to have mental reservations if your intentions are good. So, don’t believe a thing a Catholic says to you.
Also, if Ellison did take the oath on a Bible, they would have attacked him for swearing a false oath on a book he doesn’t believe in.
I regard what pundits like Prager and Spencer say about what Muslims believe the same way I regard a skinhead quoting the Talmud. They might be right, they might be wrong, but they have too big an axe to grind to be taken seriously.
(Also, contrary to their idea of Europe as Enlightenment bulwark, World War II brought hating Jewish people European style to the Arab Muslim countries. This was one of many parts to it, but that is one that sticks out most in my mind. I mean, you think that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion just materialized one day in Cairo?)
Oh, my gosh, teach me to write before reading. Change ‘Prager and Spencer’ to ‘Fischer and Spencer’.
Wait, is Bryan related to Bobby Fischer . . .
Wait, is Bryan related to Bobby Fischer . . .
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